Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

Derec said:

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

Jewish Democrat on voting against bill: Anti-Zionism not ‘inherently’ antisemitism

Jewish Rep. Sara Jacobs (D-Calif.) said she voted against the bill that would crack down on antisemitism on college campuses because, in her view, anti-Zionism is not “inherently” antisemitism, and…

thehill.com

Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities

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So criticism of the Israeli govt?

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Criticism of any government is ok. Saying that Israel should not exist (which is the essence of anti-Zionism) is very different and is antisemitic in my view.

I would also say that for example saying that Iran should not exist would be an example of antipersianism.

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And what word of the form anti-*-ism would you ascribe to a view that Palestine should not exist? I bet it's not consistent with your other answers which underscores the point of one-sidedness.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

And what word of the form anti-*-ism would you ascribe to a view that Palestine should not exist?

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Anti-terrorism of course.
If that’s too pointed, try Anti-Othersism aka xenophobia.

Derec said:

Rachel "Pancake" Corrie was a far-left activist who was accidentally killed by an Israeli bulldozer which was creating a buffer zone at the Gaza-Egypt border in 2003, before Israel disengaged from the Strip.

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(1) When you write that it happened "accidentally" what you mean is that Israel ruled it an accident when Israel did it. Non-Israel groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch say she was wearing a bright vest and this was no accident.
(2) When you write "creating a buffer zone" you mean tearing down Palestinian homes which you seem to have a tendency of not mentioning ever.
(3) When you call the bulldozed young lady "Pancake" it says way more about you than it does her.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

(1) When you write that it happened "accidentally" what you mean is that Israel ruled it an accident when Israel did it. Non-Israel groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch say she was wearing a bright vest and this was no accident.

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Yes, accidentally. She was behind a mound of dirt and the bulldozer was armored and thus the driver had limited visibility.
Note that the lawsuit in US failed too, including the appeal before the notoriously lefty 9th Circuit.
AI and HRW are notoriously anti-Israel; of course they say it was no accident.
It also reminds me of this

THHGTTG said:

“Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?” “How much?” said Arthur. “None at all,” said Mr. Prosser.”

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(2) When you write "creating a buffer zone" you mean tearing down Palestinian homes which you seem to have a tendency of not mentioning ever.

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Yes, houses close to the Egyptian border were demolished as such dwellings are often used as termini for tunnels. Note that this happened in 2003, at the height of the "Second Intifada" when Palestinian terrorists were murdering scores of Israeli civilians. You seem to have a tendency of not mentioning that ever.

(3) When you call the bulldozed young lady "Pancake" it says way more about you than it does her.

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Fun!

And it is still a mystery to me how her death justifies her fans burning down police cars in Portland.


Antifa's pro-Palestinians set fire to 15 Portland police vehicles targeted in May Day attack

Derec said:

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

(1) When you write that it happened "accidentally" what you mean is that Israel ruled it an accident when Israel did it. Non-Israel groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch say she was wearing a bright vest and this was no accident.

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Yes, accidentally. She was behind a mound of dirt and the bulldozer was armored and thus the driver had limited visibility.
Note that the lawsuit in US failed too, including the appeal before the notoriously lefty 9th Circuit.
AI and HRW are notoriously anti-Israel; of course they say it was no accident.

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Those organizations are pointing out things that Israel does wrong and that Hamas does wrong, including calling hostage-taking a war crime. But don't let that stop you from calling them biased in favor of just one side. So far, your arguments are the ones that are one-sided.

Derec said:

It also reminds me of this

THHGTTG said:

“Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?” “How much?” said Arthur. “None at all,” said Mr. Prosser.”

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Who cares what it reminds you of.

Derec said:

(2) When you write "creating a buffer zone" you mean tearing down Palestinian homes which you seem to have a tendency of not mentioning ever.

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Yes, houses close to the Egyptian border were demolished as such dwellings are often used as termini for tunnels. Note that this happened in 2003, at the height of the "Second Intifada" when Palestinian terrorists were murdering scores of Israeli civilians. You seem to have a tendency of not mentioning that ever.

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Your argument is engaging in whataboutism based on a false premise. I have no problem saying Hamas is evil and have done so time and time again. Yet here we are giving you an opportunity to say that bulldozing down Palestinian homes is wrong and you can NEVER do it under ANY circumstance.

Derec said:

(3) When you call the bulldozed young lady "Pancake" it says way more about you than it does her.

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Fun!

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Engaging in inflammatory hate speech is fun to you.

Derec said:

And it is still a mystery to me how her death justifies her fans burning down police cars in Portland.

Antifa's pro-Palestinians set fire to 15 Portland police vehicles targeted in May Day attack

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It shouldn't be a mystery to you at all. People try to be non-violent and have rational discussion, even in the face of violence. When this fails over and over, they then turn to violent methods. The very same people you favor do this. So when antifa does it by burning cars (not people) you think it is a holocaust, but when 34,000 people die by that violent principle's corollary, you think it's not enough. So, your argument is logically inconsistent and has no principles at its core, even though you state the principle it is contradicted by your statements.

Derec said:

And it is still a mystery to me how her death justifies her fans burning down police cars in Portland.

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Perhaps they too have a seriously sick sense of what constitutes "fun".

DrZoidberg said:

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

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People are seeing Gazans as victims, victims in fact of Israeli genocide, and not Hamas as victims. I don’t think anyone here has any brief for Hamas. Accusations of antisemitism against those who oppose Netanyahu’s genocide ini Gaza are odious and contemptible.

Palestinians aren’t willing to help doing that, yeah, right, blah blah blah. Almost my entire life the U.S. government has been doing things that I abhor and there isn’t a goddamned thing I can do about it.

DrZoidberg said:

No, you're right. All antisemites aren't Nazis. My bad. I appologise.

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You’ve offered no evidence that he is either. Your charges are baseless, odious, and contemptible.

barbos said:

DrZoidberg said:

That's not the problem. Loads of newly liberated countries that have free and fair elections rapidly go to shit.

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I know one such country which starts with Ukr and ends with ane

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I know another such country that stars with Russ and ends with a. The only two free and fair elections won in your country’s entire autocratic and sordid history were won by a well-intentioned drunkard named Yeltsin. I’ll grant that he was to blame for taking the “shock therapy” advice of Western right-wing economists.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

When you call the bulldozed young lady "Pancake" it says way more about you than it does her.

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He meant it as a joke but it fe … oh never mind.

pood said:

The only two free and fair elections won in your country

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Care to name them?

barbos said:

pood said:

The only two free and fair elections won in your country

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Care to name them?

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So you dispute there are any free and fair elections in Russia? Thanks. We finally have something we can agree on.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

UMass graduation speaker Colson Whitehead pulls out over quashed campus protest

AMHERST — Disturbed by the arrests of 132 protesters on the University of Massachusetts campus this week during a pro-Palestinian encampment, Colson Whitehead, the two-time Pulitzer Prize winning author scheduled to deliver the keynote address at the...

www.gazettenet.com

From the article:

“I have to withdraw as your commencement speaker. I give all my best wishes and congratulations to the class of ’24 and pray for the safety of the Palestinian people, the return of the hostages and an end to this terrible war.”

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That's the kind of message that resonates with me: "safety of the Palestinian people" which is very pressing right now, "return of the hostages" also very high priority. Promote peace and coexistence. Return the hostages. No slaughters of civilians.

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Here is a very detailed account of the evening that prompted Whitehead to withdraw. It's from the student run Massachusetts Daily Collegian.


A very peaceful protest where the police perpetrated all of the violence.

Completely independent of these protests I've been planning a nostalgia visit to Umass Amherst all winter and spring that will take place Monday May 13-15. I wonder what it will be like. I'll be staying in the Campus Center hotel next to the student union and will be able to see this field from by room window.

It is anarchy on the University Of Washington campus.

20 something students who do not their butt holes from a hole in ground out of control.

The mob at the UW has attacked people, shit down a busy light ail station. and suppressed free spech.

It is similar to the stretch of riots we had, albeit not as destructive

.Schools have an obligation to ensure safety and rights of all students. Schools have an obligation to maintain civil order. If students want to act like irresponsible out of control children then treat thme accordingly.

As has happened in California UW students are angry of a conservative speaker. The left can be just as oppressive as the right.

Of curse violence is the fault of the police ad students bear no responsibility, right? Not the case at the UW. Opposing factions having at each other,

pood said:

barbos said:

DrZoidberg said:

That's not the problem. Loads of newly liberated countries that have free and fair elections rapidly go to shit.

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I know one such country which starts with Ukr and ends with ane

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I know another such country that stars with Russ and ends with a. The only two free and fair elections won in your country’s entire autocratic and sordid history were won by a well-intentioned drunkard named Yeltsin. I’ll grant that he was to blame for taking the “shock therapy” advice of Western right-wing economists.

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Sort of like the Provisional Government of 1917. It kept Russia in the Great War, as it was called back then, even though that war was unpopular enough for many soldiers to desert and mutiny. Vladimir Lenin promised "peace, land, bread", and defeated them.

steve_bank said:

It is anarchy on the University Of Washington campus.

20 something students who do not their butt holes from a hole in ground out of control.

The mob at the UW has attacked people, shit down a busy light ail station. and suppressed free spech.

It is similar to the stretch of riots we had, albeit not as destructive

.Schools have an obligation to ensure safety and rights of all students. Schools have an obligation to maintain civil order. If students want to act like irresponsible out of control children then treat thme accordingly.

As has happened in California UW students are angry of a conservative speaker. The left can be just as oppressive as the right.

Of curse violence is the fault of the police ad students bear no responsibility, right? Not the case at the UW. Opposing factions having at each other,

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Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful. There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands. There was also an altercation between protesters and the police on the Quad. Some protesters damaged equipment of journalists and others. Hopefully, they were identified and can be prosecuted for property damage and intimidation tactics. Most of the protesters and those sympathetic to them have been orderly and peaceful. There have also been pro-Israel protesters interacting with the pro-Palestinian ones, both sides behaving provocatively.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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There is not constitutional right to disrupt and occupy private property.

During the riots in Seattle a group unannounced waked out on I5 in the middle of traffic. A woman was hit by a car and died. The family sued the city and police for not protect the girl.

As a college student you re considered an adult. That means whatever you choose to do you are resistible for any consequences. If you choose to occupy a campus and violence or chaos breaks out even if you are not directly responsible you are responsible for choosing to be in a potentially dangerous situation. If yiu get pepper sprayed and aressted you have to live with that consequence.

Freedom of action is not mean freedom from consequences.

If you do not like the policy pf a school leave and go someplace else.

From reporting supplies like gas masks and plywood to build structures were stockpiled before hand.

Isolated incidents of violence are not riots, and the vast majority of college students behave like adults. Nobody is arguing that anyone has a constitutional right to disrupt and occupy private property. The Constitution is explicit about the right of assembly being for peaceable assembly, but the reality is that no peaceable assembly can preclude the appearance of people who are unable or unwilling to behave in a peaceful manner. So, rather than get upset when the inevitable happens, we need to train our security forces to be prepared for sensible crowd control when that happens. It doesn't help matters when the police themselves become partisan participants in the violence. I've personally witnessed situations where that has happened. It is important that the police and national guard find ways to work with protest leaders to isolate and remove the more violent elements in the crowd. I've also seen that happen. Most protest movements will promote nonviolent techniques of civil disobedience, and authorities need to have a strategy for keeping the situation nonviolent, as they move to ensure the rights of those who choose not to join in the protest.

steve_bank said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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There is not constitutional right to disrupt and occupy private property.

During the riots in Seattle a group unannounced waked out on I5 in the middle of traffic. A woman was hit by a car and died. The family sued the city and police for not protect the girl.

As a college student you re considered an adult. That means whatever you choose to do you are resistible for any consequences. If you choose to occupy a campus and violence or chaos breaks out even if you are not directly responsible you are responsible for choosing to be in a potentially dangerous situation. If yiu get pepper sprayed and aressted you have to live with that consequence.

Freedom of action is not mean freedom from consequences.

If you do not like the policy pf a school leave and go someplace else.

From reporting supplies like gas masks and plywood to build structures were stockpiled before hand.

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That's always the answer, isn't it? Don't like a school policy? Find another school. Don't like your pay or working conditions? Find another job. Ironic coming from a guy who regularly complains about the neighborhood he lives it. Maybe it's not so easy to just leave your school, work, home. Maybe we all have our particular circumstances that preclude us from bopping around the country looking for nirvana.

Copernicus said:

steve_bank said:

It is anarchy on the University Of Washington campus.

20 something students who do not their butt holes from a hole in ground out of control.

The mob at the UW has attacked people, shit down a busy light ail station. and suppressed free spech.

It is similar to the stretch of riots we had, albeit not as destructive

.Schools have an obligation to ensure safety and rights of all students. Schools have an obligation to maintain civil order. If students want to act like irresponsible out of control children then treat thme accordingly.

As has happened in California UW students are angry of a conservative speaker. The left can be just as oppressive as the right.

Of curse violence is the fault of the police ad students bear no responsibility, right? Not the case at the UW. Opposing factions having at each other,

Click to expand...

Actually, for the most part, the protesters have been peaceful. There has been no evidence of anarchy, but there have been the usual brief outbreaks of violence and intimidation, especially when the universe announced that they would not meet the protesters' divestment demands. There was also an altercation between protesters and the police on the Quad. Some protesters damaged equipment of journalists and others. Hopefully, they were identified and can be prosecuted for property damage and intimidation tactics. Most of the protesters and those sympathetic to them have been orderly and peaceful. There have also been pro-Israel protesters interacting with the pro-Palestinian ones, both sides behaving provocatively.

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I kinda had a feeling Steve might have been taking liberties with the word anarchy.